Erica Stanford, left, and Jan Tinetti Photo: RNZ
National Minister Erica Stanford's scrutiny hearing descended into a political slinging match between the minister and two Labour MPs as they clashed over the redress system for survivors abused in state care.
Stanford, who is in charge of the government's response, faced a grilling from Opposition MPs at Parliament on Wednesday over why an independent agency hadn't been set up to deliver on a recommendation from the Royal Commission and survivors, and why ministers considered limiting redress for gang members.
Labour's Jan Tinetti told the committee a "key fundamental recommendation that survivors asked for" was an independent entity so that the state - the abuser - wasn't dealing with survivors directly as part of the redress.
"The Crown had been the abuser and we are hearing daily, and we heard it today, the survivors are still feeling like the Crown is abusing them because their voice has been taken away," Tinetti said.
Tinetti asked Stanford why the government didn't take that into account and commit to a new system.
Stanford said "many people going through the system are very happy with the service they're getting, of course there are some people who are not".
When advice was sought on a new independent agency she said she was told: "It may not be any better than we have now and I wasn't prepared to go through that huge cost, huge time, and huge complexity to maybe not have a better outcome".
Erica Stanford Photo: RNZ / Samuel Rillstone
But Stanford noted an independent agency wasn't off the cards completely in the future.
However, she went on to say, "it's bewildering to me that you have such an obsession with these large complex independent agencies when the experience of late has been, when we have set these up - like Te Pukenga" the outcomes have been worse.
Tinetti was education minister under the previous government that oversaw Te Pukenga, which the coalition government is unwinding.
"I'd also like to point out the redress report that was delivered was in 2021, the previous government had a very long time to act on that - it called for an independent agency back then," Stanford said.
Jan Tinetti Photo: RNZ / Angus Dreaver
That remark prompted Labour's Willow-Jean Prime to interject and say a working group was set-up to design it under the previous government. Tinetti then called a point of order to mount a defence.
"I'd just like to remind that this is estimates looking forward and Chris Hipkins did apologise during his speech on the 12th of November in the House, and offered to work with the government on this.
"We don't need to go backwards... We want to know what the minister is doing, we don't need to know what the previous government didn't do, we've already acknowledged we could have moved faster. We've already made that apology," she said.
Speaking to the point of order, Stanford said she had been "directly challenged" and wanted to respond.
A back and forth of jabs continued between Stanford, Prime, and Tinetti.
"I know you don't like to hear this," the minister commented, which Prime responded to by saying, "you're disingenuous, let's be honest", while Tinetti muttered in the background "appalling, you are disappointing minister".
The National and New Zealand First members of the committee sat in silence as the war of words played out.
Earlier in the hearing, Green Party co-leader Marama Davidson raised questions about why advice had been sought on whether to limit redress for gang members.
Ultimately, ministers chose to treat gangs the same as any other survivor, but create a new pathway for serious offenders.
Stanford said she sought advice on a range of things.
"Everyone has different opinions and ideas and views. We took everything into account, I sought advice on a range of different things - it doesn't necessarily mean I believed that thing or wanted that thing - but it's important as a lawmaker... when you take your job responsibly to look at every possible thing," she said.
"I needed to make sure I had all of the evidence at hand."
Davidson queried why she even needed to ask about limiting redress for gang members when it "sends a message that the real violence that happened is only validated for some people and not others".
Stanford responded saying she went out of her way and "called gang members and invited them personally to the apology, into Parliament... that tells you everything you need to know about my beliefs".
Without all the evidence though, Stanford said she would have exposed herself to being an "uninformed lawmaker".
